User talk:Lirielle

For older discussions, see:
 * User talk:Lirielle/history1
 * User talk:Lirielle/history2
 * User talk:Lirielle/history3

Request Clarification of and Discussion upon Commentary Rules
Plus, other additional discussions.

1. Is there a page that establishes some ground rules about what to or not to include within spell descriptions? If so, please point me to it. If not, then is there a detailed consensus on the current state of affairs?
 * Nope. it follows the general consensus rules.
 * I'll take your word for it. However, I am aware that you've been known to take things into your hands without prior approval from the rest of the community, judging from recent outcries against some of your recent actions. I cannot help questioning the validity of this without any proof (so there is indeed no page you can point me towards), but I won't push this further.

2. From what I've seen, I presently disagree with some of your edits lately. Not personal.
 * You're free to do so.

Currently, I observe a double standard. One rule-of-thumb seems to be that build-related spell comments are not favored. However, why are there an excess of older spell notes that are even more build-specific, opinionated, and not helpful, that have at least been around for the past couple of months? I am not saying that I prefer the alternative; I merely attempt to present some information based on what others have done before. Why aren't others weeded out?
 * Why are there missing pictures? Why are there pages with old templates?... Time is the answer.

What most troubles me is your latest edit regarding Shovel Throwing. Ok, I can understand your view on really avoiding build-related comments. However, your latest edit takes out what I would myself consider to be important clarifications to avoid misunderstandings (especially the rationale explaining why Shovel Throwing is, well, bad), while leaving in exactly what should be removed - the build-related part. The only reason for this seems to be a strict less-is-more policy, which I can understand. Again, a list of ground rules can be very helpful.
 * An example: comparing Shovel Throwing with Ghostly Shovel is pretty irrelevant, since they don't use the same element. Another example: details about unlearning a spell are to be found on the appropriate page (Spell loss potion).
 * Comparing Shovel Throwing with Ghostly Shovel is not irrelevant, because the common Chance build will not have other single-target ranged attack options until level 26 (which is a long way for solo-dependent non-leeching beginners). For a Strength build, early-level Enutrofs will likely use the Gobball set, and you cannot assume that everyone can get their hands on the Strength-focused variety of the set. This leaves a reasonable amount of Intelligence which will factor into the damage for Ghostly Shovel, which, when both are compared at spell level 1, the latter deals about double the damage of Shovel Throwing. In theory, they won't be compared, but in practice, a Strength Enutrof has a fair reason to choose between Shovel Throwing and Ghostly Shovel in early levels. Not in terms of putting points into Ghostly Shovel, but of refraining from putting points into Shovel Throwing. It is also not irrelevant, because while a hybrid Strength-Intelligence Enutrof is rare, it will help them to make a informed decision about whether to invest in Shovel Throwing or Ghostly Shovel.
 * Details about unlearning a spell can be found on another page, yes. However, an advisable strategy to learn a specific short-term-significant spell then unlearn it later so as to not make your early life as an Enutrof potentially painful is not on that page. Nor is there a link to that page before the advice was added. Is this not a relevant strategic decision one player can indeed make, especially considering that it is relatively cheap to unlearn a spell as opposed to the pain of not learning it early on may cause on a fledgling beginner?

3. In the case that such policies are not part of a consensus but is the philosophy of an experienced veteran, I'll respect that. However, whatever the case may be, I strongly disagree with this less-is-more ideal. My approach is to give as much information to newbies as possible, and I've already read in the community portal that such is one of the movements being promoted. Why, I ask, do we have to force a newcomer to compare dozens of tables of statistics in order to determine that, for instance, Shovel Throwing does roughly the same damage as Mound and Ghostly Shovel (all leveled)?

I think it is helpful to explain to newcomers (and spell descriptions really should tailor to the newbies) where each spell lies in the ecosystem of all spells, considering all spells of all classes. Each have its place and purpose in the game. While where each lies is obvious to the veteran, it often is obscure to the newcomer. I am not sure how many months and years you have spent playing this game, but you may have forgotten that some things are not so clear to the newcomers. Spell descriptions, at the moment, are vague and pretty much useless. I believe that it is important to give an overview of each spell and its role for common builds, especially considering that, in the current of chaotic and controversial build overhauls which would likely take months to sort out (by the time Wakfu goes Open Beta and everyone loses interest, I'd say =P), forcing newcomers to sort through those horrendous builds-mess to get a picture of where a certain spell fits in the game or figure out themselves (then they wouldn't be here, would they?) is, in my opinion, not the ideal way to go.
 * Newcomers are best guided through discussions on specific builds. Detailed functioning of a spell (which is what spell pages are about) requires some advanced knowledge. Understanding how AoE functions is recommended when looking at spell pages. If not, links lead you to the proper page. Again, streamlining (avoiding duplicates) is the word.

In short, details should be included and corrected, not rejected.


 * Call it less-is-more if you want, my philosophy is to keep the wikia as manageable as possible. Helping people to get quickly to the required info implies using links and not duplicating info, since this almost leads to discrepancies when the info is updated in one place and not the other.
 * Ok, I'll keep that very important note in mind. This would imply that it is reasonable to include a suggestion on learning-then-unlearning, for example (and since we are talking about it anyway), Shovel Throwing, but add a link to the unlearning process page instead. Yes?

4. Regarding recent Mound edit: Why would X-AoE be more effective than circular AoE? At no point in the description was that ever claimed. Please read again: ''For instance, with its X-AoE (cross AoE), it can hit opponents hidden behind an obstacle that obstructs your line of sight. With it, you can also hit enemies more easily in some circumstances than a Circle AoE.'' It explicitly does not say that X-AoE is better. It only says that it is better in some situations, which implies that it is no better or worse in others. One such example is when you have allies in the way. Not mentioning this may mislead players into thinking that X-AoE is automatically worse because it covers less squares, but that is not necessarily true.
 * Right, but that is a very specific and limited convenience of X-AoE. (IMVHO it doesn't matter much in the choice of an attack spell). Current text honours your basic meaning of 'can sometimes be useful'. The rest is irrelevant (if you have Enu and look for info to choose wher to invest your spell points, you really don't care about other classes not having an AoE spell at this level.
 * However, it is relevant in choosing your class and its build beforehand. It is certainly not very significant, but nonetheless being the only decent AoE amongst all classes at such an early stage is one advantage to being a Strength Enutrof. Again, not big, but relevant. Of course, all this doesn't matter since build-dependent notes are absolutely off-limits. =P

Thank you for your consideration. =3
 * You're welcome. Use the Talk page of the specific pages if you want to continue the discussion about what info to include. Which I encourage as the best way to reach the intended consensus. --Lirielle 20:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your elaboration. I now see that duplicate information is a big issue in the administrative viewpoint. I don't think I have to stress the urgency of getting those build and guide pages up and running. I mean, how many years have this game been out already? The mere state of grammatical errors in spell descriptions speak volumes about how the details are being neglected. I question spending the time to weed out duplicates is worth the delay in completing the new build and guide pages. What I highly suggest is to leave the spell commentary alone for a time and focus on what's more important. Otherwise, the community is left in this limbo-mess where it becomes frustrating to find any useful information - which defeats the purpose of a wikia, IMHO. Joewoof 04:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Selectively Sortable Table
I'm looking to make several tables that have a sort toggle, but only for certain columns and not others. Thus far my searches for how to accomplish this failed, though - any suggestions? Aetnaria 14:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is the page from wikipedia:Help:Sorting, we have the same feature and i try to keep updated so there will not be to much of a difference --Cizagna (Talk) 14:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perfect, that was exactly what I needed!
 * Though now I've found an inconsistency when using the default sort, given the first table (Bread) here:
 * http://www.wikia.com/dofus/User:Aetnaria/Food%26Drink
 * When toggling the Life category for descending order, sorting is numeric (200-150-100-20-10). But when reversed, sorting is alphabetical (10-100-150-20-200). Is there a way to force numeric sorting for this column (even though it should be auto-detected regardless of sort direction), or is it a bug that requires an update to the underlying javascript code? Thanks!
 * --Aetnaria 22:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats because you are combining an alfanumeric information "51-100" and javascrip does not understand how to separate that neither how to process it, so it tries to do it with alphabetic, you can use the hidden sort key Same page as previous one --Cizagna (Talk) 04:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The hidden sortkey method suggests using the span tag to contain the actual sort value... if I understand this correctly (which I probably do not). I tried replacing all alphanumeric phrases with lines like this:
 * &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51&lt;/span&gt;51-100
 * 51&lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51&lt;/span&gt;-100
 * 51&lt;span style="display:none"&gt;-100&lt;/span&gt;-100
 * 51&lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51-100&lt;/span&gt;-100
 * 51&lt;span style="display:none"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;-100
 * But it still sorts alphanumerically rather than numerically. What am I missing? --Aetnaria 18:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Okay, I still don't get how to 'force' a numeric sort. But forcing everything to sort alphanumerically instead works just fine, even if the code needed to match everything up is damn ugly. Thank you for your help Cizagna. --Aetnaria 18:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Because you are not separating the numbers from the letters, N will be number and L will be letters so we have
 * The script does not understand RANGE you must choose between 51 or 100 you cant and i repeat CANT USE BOTH that dash (-) since its not at the start program thinks its a letter so thats why it will keep sorting alphabetic even if you are using the hide sorting
 * Below in red you can see what is wrong. Below in blue you can see what is right.
 * 51 &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51&lt;/span&gt; -100
 * 51 &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;-100&lt;/span&gt; -100
 * 51 &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51-100&lt;/span&gt; -100
 * 51 &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;&lt;/span&gt; -100
 * &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;51&lt;/span&gt; 51-100
 * &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;-100&lt;/span&gt; 51-100 (this the scrip will understand as minus 100)
 * &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;100&lt;/span&gt; 51-100
 * Also giving a space would be good so the scrip can separate, and code side yes its horrible because you have to do it on all the cells for it to force it. Another option is to create 2 columns 1 for minimun and 1 for maximun healing that way will be easier to order, for fixed healings you put the number on both columns --Cizagna (Talk) 01:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * &lt;span style="display:none"&gt;100&lt;/span&gt; 51-100
 * Also giving a space would be good so the scrip can separate, and code side yes its horrible because you have to do it on all the cells for it to force it. Another option is to create 2 columns 1 for minimun and 1 for maximun healing that way will be easier to order, for fixed healings you put the number on both columns --Cizagna (Talk) 01:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Months of Dofus
Good morning.

I would like to ask if you know the name of months in-game.

If you know, tell me, please.

Have a good day. --Echo-7 14:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Javian, Flovor, Martalo, Aperirel, Maysial, Junssidor, Jullier, Frauguctor, Septangel, Octolliard, Novamaire, Descendre --Lirielle 14:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Echo-7 13:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Class build
The template seems fine atm. It could probably do with being a bit more detailed, though I think that would be best to wait till we've sorted out the whole builds issue so we could have more of a rating system involved (E.g. Easy to make build/hard to make build, effective/ineffective). I'll use it on any builds I tidy, starting with my Osa's one ^^. PerfidousT E C 13:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Class Builds
What is going on with the discussion about builds atm. When I first saw it I thought 'Yes, finally we're going to sort this out.' Yet now it seems, much to my horror, that it's dead. Each day I come across useless builds which should have been gone long ago. TBH I'm getting sick of it. I know my complaints are nothing new but I still think something needs to be done, either by rekindling the discussion or just coming up with a template and getting on with it. Either way I just want useless builds, like Osamodas/Intelligence4 to be gone. IMVHO I think a template should be made, implemented and then talked about later. Atm this whole 'Guides vs Builds' thing isn't working, admittadley I'm not 'In the know' as to why it's been delayed yet that doesn't concern me too much. All I really want is a basic template to work off of, for useless builds to be deleted, then I'll get to work on any ones with a slice of dececny. I've got enough knowledge of Dofus to work on remaining builds and I've been doing a lot of work, as you mentioned, on builds anyway. As I've said, I want a fast, simple solution, I don't see this Community Input thing working. I'll be interested to see what you have to say. PerfidousT E C 16:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't know what to say. Cizagna started it and sort of abandoned it. So I suggest we do as we think fit and wait for him to react. Here are a few conclusions that I draw from the discussion and from our experience:
 * Moving embryo pages to user space wasn't a good idea. It started as a way of allowing authors to keep control of their builds until ready for publication, but should not be extended to all new builds, as we're adding to the amount of scrap pages if their author doesn't finalize them.
 * We still have no formal procedure for build deletion. I'm taking responsability of deleting some pages when they are 'undeniably' old and/or incomplete, but this is/should be exceptional. Some kind of voting procedure before deletion is still missing.
 * We still don't have a 'style guide' for builds. (Which is probably the template that you're calling for)
 * In the meanwhile, I suggest we go ahead and design an interim solution. The main purpose is to hide scrap builds from public view.
 * As you know, to help tracking builds wherever they are, I've started a template that could be easily extended to include any fields that might help in maintaining the builds.
 * So my proposal would be:
 * Create a special space where to 'park' embryo builds: Dofus:Scrapbook
 * Move to this space embryo builds (Admin only?)
 * (If authors don't want their pages to be edited by others, they can still use their User space, but we would add the template so as to keep track)
 * Move to this space builds tagged for deletion? (Admin only?)
 * Add new fields to the Build template. I can think of many uses of this template, but am waiting for suggestions. Here are a few ideas: 'Deletion=yes' (pages tagged for deletion) 'Status=' (many possibilities here, like 'scrapbook' to allow DPL listing of the Scrapbook, 'historical', 'experimental'?, 'outdated'), other fields for categorization (we have 'trait' and 'hybrid', we could add eg. 'scrolling' and 'kamas' for build that DO require scrolling or money from the start)... We might use the template talk page for this discussion.
 * Use DPL to list builds. Based on the template fields, we could design DPL tables in different places for different purposes: builds per element (this would greatly enhance the readability and ease of maintenance of master pages such as Ecaflip/Strength or Osamodas/Agility), historical/experimental builds, scrapbook builds...
 * My suggestions for a build skeleton are on the wikia.
 * --Lirielle 11:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * K just for clarification, what would moving a build to the Scrapbook involve? PerfidousT E C [[Image:Osamodas-Icon-Spell-Summoning of Red Wyrm.jpg|20px]] 13:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just moving it, prefixing 'Dofus:Scrapbook/', eg. 'MyGodlyBuild' to 'Dofus:Scrapbook/MyGodlyBuild'--Lirielle 14:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Overall I can't see anything bad with what you suggest, though I don't tend to with these things. PerfidousT E C [[Image:Osamodas-Icon-Spell-Summoning of Red Wyrm.jpg|20px]] 14:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Search engine optimization
Hey Lirielle. I wanted to give you a heads up on the edit I just made to MediaWiki:Pagetitle, the file that controls the text displayed in the browser's title bar. We're taking a more aggressive approach to search engine optimization. I've been assigned with dropping by the top 50 gaming wikis to edit that file in order to maximize traffic from search engines. Feel free to replace and/or add words as you see fit, but leave 'Dofus Wiki' at the far left since that's the most important thing. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to shoot me a message. JoePlay (talk) 02:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

User page protection
My user page has been edited twice now, by a user other than me and for no good reason. I have my suspicions that it may be the same person, though I'm no good with the whole I.P. thing. I was wondering whether you could protect my user page from unregistered users' edits, hopefully with an infinite duration. I'm not sure what the wiki's policy is on the matter, yet I don't really want my page being edited in such a way, regardless of whether the edits were offensive or not. TIA. Also should I start moving builds to the scrapbook etc? PerfidousT E C 20:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for deleting "Leveling time".
You obviously are really bad at math or just really stupid. It is accurate, I have timed it over and over again with different characters. Its only about 5-15 mins off because of the time it requires to find a mob. So I am going to put it back up, don't fuckin touch it this time...

I just read your comment above, maybe the reason they're deleting your page is because you delete everyone else's. You keep doing this to my contributions and I'll delete everything you've contributed, its not a threat its a promise.
 * I dare think I'm both good at math and not stupid. Your calculations are just pointless because combat duration is way too dependent on your character stats and strategies, as well as on the mobs you chose and/or find. The rest is pretty obvious. --Lirielle 06:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

A specific contribution
I don't suppose you'd have anything specific you need done. I know I've been doing a lot of work on, as I did with the NPCs. Just I'd prefer something to focus on, as opposed to drifting over pages. PerfidousT E C 22:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok I should be able to work on Sets. The only thing I would have difficulty finding is the release date. PerfidousT E C [[Image:Osamodas-Icon-Spell-Summoning of Red Wyrm.jpg|20px]] 13:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh k. In that case I should be fine updating the set pages. PerfidousT E C [[Image:Osamodas-Icon-Spell-Summoning of Red Wyrm.jpg|20px]] 17:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Pet template
I have started to create a pet template at User:Squirrelladventures/Template:Pet. I'm not very good with the code side of it, and I'm not sure what else I need to add. Can you make any suggestions? The talk page would probably be the best place for comments. TIA, Adventures  OfA  Squirrel z z z11:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Feca/Intelligence, etc
I'm not sure if it makes more sense to reply to messages on my own talk page, or on yours, so I'm doing both at the moment >_> I am not terribly familiar with wiki... etiquette, I suppose.

I'm glad my Feca/Intelligence edit was generally appreciated, and I also apologize if it's a little wonky. I tried basing my page on the Ecaflip/Strength page (as that was the first I found using the "new" format), but I took a couple liberties >_> I felt that my doing this should at least prompt something being done, with the worst-case scenario being that my edit was SO bad, people would feel it necessary to redo it entirely, but hopefully at least within the same general layout :P

Completely unrelated, I also made an edit to provide something I've always wanted: an easy way to find all AP equipment and MP equipment, by level... I employed the sortable table template on AP equipment and MP equipment respectively, and linked to them from Category:AP equipment and Category:MP equipment. I'm not sure if people would like to also find +damage, +heals, and other such equipment - I didn't do those - but AP and MP are so important to get, I figured they at least should be easy to find by level.

- Telkoth 09:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Answering to talk pages can be done to either of the parties' talk page. I tend to answer on the same page unless specifically asked otherwise.
 * Your Feca/Intelligence page looks very good to me. I hope it will somehow give new momentum to the general build discussion (AND implementation of its results). I like the subpage to be as general as possible, this is why a changed a few things, but you or other people may find my approach too restrictive and edit my changes. I'm really satisfied with the page as a whole anyway. Many people complain or comment on our being slow on improving the build pages... we do need hands. So thx for your help.
 * About AP/MP equipment pages, I'm not convinced but I'll leave them as they are. Personally, I do not find them very useful because when I look for such information, I need it to be more specific - restricted to some kind of equipement (Hat...) for example. So I use custom DPL tables to that end. Anyway, the current pages do not harm and some may find them useful. --Lirielle 10:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Main Page rename
Since you seem to be the most active admin, I wanted to let you that I just renamed the Main Page to Dofus Wiki. I've been assigned with stopping by all the top gaming wikis and making sure their main page is named (Game Name) Wiki instead of Main Page, for search engine optimization purposes. If you admins decide you don't want the keep the new main page name, you obviously have the right to revert, but I would strongly suggest keeping it so that even more people will find this wiki. Cheers. =) JoePlay (talk) 20:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

template issues
hi, there is and issue with the replace string function that is been use on the weapon/equipment/etc, i have already report it i will inform you as soon as its resolve --Cizagna (Talk) 10:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, I noticed that this morning and was about to drop you a note. Thanks for your care. --Lirielle 11:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Profession logos on your user page
On your user page, the character "Lirielle" has the professions Baker, Farmer and Baker listed. The first Baker listing has an Alchemist logo next to it. The character "Satedi" has the listed professions Hunter, Butcher and Axe Smith. The Axe Smith listing has a Tailor logo next to it. I thought I would bring this to your attention. Hoping this doesn't inconvenience you, Adventures  OfA  Squirrel z z z10:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, I mixed it all up and am correcting one thing at a time... Guess I'm a bit lazy on that ;). Thx. --Lirielle 14:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)