Talk:Cra

Cra/Hybrid
Hybrid - strengths of a hybrid build depend on which build one actually makes. If a hybrid build features a str/int/vit combination, the damage output will be marginally lower than pure builds and there will be greater pressure on getting good equipment. This build however provides versatility and survivability all round, and makes for a more enjoyable game in the levels where strength and intelligence builds have problems. - Harrow


 * Harrow: If you're going to push Cra/Hybrid as a worthy competitor, I suggest you start with the Cra/Hybrid article.  Until you can demonstrate actual strengths compared to ALL other builds, I will be forced to continue to delete your editorializing.  As you say above, at no point will the Hybrid be stronger than a pure build, only more flexible / versatile.  And "enjoyable" is entirely subjective.  --GrauGeist 18:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Graugeist: I think that before that time that I can sit down and type up a respectable guide, piecemeal additions can be tolerated. Moreover, I fail to see how it makes sense to delete posts adding new knowledge just because the new knowledge about builds does not make the class more powerful. In addition, the hybrid cra as such is a very problematic term. A hybrid cra can be a crit cra with a str or an int component, or a str/int build, or a str/int/vit build, or whatever else. And before the community produces enough knowledge about these separate hybrids to make them worthy of separate pages, I think it is obtuse to delete paragraphs that add legitimate bits of that new knowledge. That said, I agree that my paragraph above was too long and I agree with moderator's intervention into its length. I think the survivability and versatility portions are true strengths of hybrid cra builds, whichever one chooses, so I petition those be returned in the text (added by Harrow who is not quite familiar with making comments here yet :) ) - Harrow


 * Please don't take this personally. People look to the Wiki for useful useable content. Merely stating the obvious or telling them bits and pieces without context or detail serves very little purpose.  Telling a Cra to spend points on Vitality is generally considered bad, so you need to give a very clear explanation of what you intend, how and why.  I consider the current Cra/Hybrid to be very weak Build and poorly written, NOT up to the standards set by the Cra main page, nor any of the other Cra Build pages.  While I agree about verstility and flexibility, but survivability is rather debatable.  Telling people that they can make their Hybrid one of 8 or 12 different flavors is useless.  Please keep in mind that the Build pages are very specific plans for people to follow.  If you can document Cra/Vitality or redo Cra/Hybrid, that could be useful and helpful.  I would suggest that you spend some time re-developing the Cra/Hybrid page until you get it to a point that you would feel comfortable suggesting a specific approach that others can follow.  If you can't be bothered to write a respectable guide for the Build that you're advancing, then I have to conclude the idea isn't yet ready for inclusion at this level.  While you work on it as a running project, you should probably host the draft under Harrow/Cra/Hybrid and we can keep the link active on this Talk Page for others to look into, as a place to get suggestions and commentary.  It will also help you become more familiar with how Wiki works.      I look forward to your continued efforts on the Wiki.  --GrauGeist 22:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Grau, you seem to fail to notice that the int and str builds covered in this wiki take the obvious path, and that the str build guide ends at level 60, while the only reason the int build goes to 90 is the explosive arrow. If you read the guide for a hybrid cra on imp village forum (which is really a crit cra guide), you will see near the final pages a contribution from a player at Jiva, who explains the importance of vitality for a cra beyond level 50. This entirely corresponds to my experience (which is strength cra turned str/crit cra). The reason for my contributions is that the Cra front page at the moment is based on on very narrow conceptions of the cra class that are quite weak in levels 40-60, and also later when compared to better thought-out hybrid cra builds. So before someone has a hefty amount of hours to spend on writing up a detailed guide, no new knowledge can be added to the main page? How can it be told to the readers of the Cra main page that the information there is quite narrow and almost certainly below ideal at levels post 50? - Harrow


 * Harrow, given that I actively maintain Cra and Cra/Strength, I think I'm well aware that they take the obvious path. The point of a Build page is to give useful guidance that others can follow.  There is no problem with Cra/Strength stopping with Destructive Arrow, nor Cra/Intelligence stopping with Explosive Arrow.  After that point, the builds diverge pretty widely, depending on personal perference. As for Imp Village, if their "Hybrid" is actually a Cra/Critical, then pushing it as the Wiki Cra/Hybrid doesn't make sense.  The point of the main pages is to provide generally useful information that most people won't be steered wrong by.  Cra is a pretty complex class, and things start get get very complicated around lv.50.  For you to complain about the information presented without developing a solid alternative isn't the way to do things. If you want to help fix Cra/Hybrid into something that can be recommended on the main Cra page, then I'm glad to help you with it.  But if you haven't gotten to lv.60/70 yourself and seen the impact of your recommendations, it's a bit premature to put them on the main page.   --GrauGeist 18:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Class name diacritics
To maintain a certain minimum level of editor sanity, we the English class names: Cra, Xelor and Feca. If anyone wants to put a notice at the top of the class pages about the French spelling, they're welcome to, but use the proper names in general writing. As always, this is open to debate, but considering there's not a single use of Crâ before today, I expect there's already consensus about this. - Dashiva 20:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Given that this is the English Wikicities, the English names are appropriate. --GrauGeist 00:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Commentary
I'm not sure the protocol on bias in articles, but it seems that the suggestion to add agility to a strength build is a biased one. I would change it, but the article would then reflect my bias. Perhaps a better approach would be to add some listings of hybrids. Opinions on this matter are welcome. - Teucer


 * The class pages are quite bad at the moment, suffering from lack of both structure and content. Here's an outline of what I'd like to see. (See below) - Dashiva


 * I'm OK with the Skills/Spell table as-is. Builds is basically OK as well, but needs more on Agility / Hybrids, along a guidance sections on advantages / disadvantages. I don't know what the Good/Average Build sections would add. - GrauGeist


 * Those are example builds. - Dashiva 12:33, 7 Jan 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh. I think I would start Builds with a brief discussion of the various typical builds and their differences, then redirect for details.  Example Builds should stay on the detail pages, or the main page gets too busy. - GrauGeist


 * I added the Stats table, with "ALL" and "over NNNN", which I think is a bit clearer and easier to enter than using the "oo" (infinity) symbol. - GrauGeist


 * Using both "to 350" and "over 350" just makes it unclear, in my opinion. The 4:1 section clearly says 4:1 lasts until 350, so there should be no need to mention when 5:1 starts, only when it ends. I agree the infinity symbol isn't the perfect choice, I used it to conform with the "to x" form. Alternatives would be "Rest" or "Forever" or something, I just couldn't think of a good word. - Dashiva 18:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * How about "OVER"? - GrauGeist


 * I redid the Skills table as 2 columns - GrauGeist


 * I realize it's much easier to edit by having the sequence go horizontally first, but it's really confusing to read when you're used to seeing it go vertically. Generally, multi-column tables should flow like several single-column ones. - Dashiva 11:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, done. You're awfully particular! - GrauGeist


 * Someone has to think about the users. :) - Dashiva 00:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

General chat. Cra's Range is a natural hybrid, blah blah. Enemy = arrow'd. Put the infobox here too, I suppose.

Stats
Table of stat costs progressions, and maybe a column listing the number of skills using each element relevant to a given stat. No talk about "this stat is useful", leave that for builds section.


 * Done! - GrauGeist

Skills
Big skill table here. Kill the element column and make the description "Fire damage", etc instead. Make sure the descriptions are actually short and not two paragraphs like in the ingame descriptions.

I'd like to see the table with two main columns like in the community site flash. It's way too tall as it is.


 * Done! - GrauGeist

Dopples
Info on cra dopples here.


 * Done!

Builds
Maybe something general about builds. Common knowledge like "don't learn summon arachnee, it sucks." It would also contain subsections discussing and comparing specific skills and strategies without giving complete builds.

Good build
It rocks. Pick skills and stats and use items that give blah blah, then at level x you do this.

Average build
Meh.

Fire or Earth in early levels
Pick this, or that. This is why. Etc.

Huge Build
This is a build with blah blah blah, see the full article at /Huge Build because it's too big and detailed.

Sets
This page advises to get the Young Adventurer set, what other sets are recommended for Cra at different levels?


 * Personally I would use Gobball Set at lvl 20, and just get the lining based on what type you are, or if you are rich get a 40/40. Later you will start using Prespic set, and beyond that custom comes into play. - MrMunchie

Spam filter
The link to Zanarkand's Cra guides (thebiglebowsky.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=classguides&action=display&thread=1150458423) seems to be filtered out by wikia and so was removed. --Kishou 03:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments (moved from the article page)
Treerings can be used to boost 1 ap not sure what the stats are negative a lot of stuff though

Could someone make a table of all the different bows with recommendations here, please? :-)


 * Perhaps people could start by saying what bow they're currently using and we could build it up from there. See also Bow.

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 * hisda for agil cra great combo with bow skill and make sure you have one with -40 intel and get a + life pet because it'll suck your health away with the -100 vital with 8 ap cast with plauge arrow and do close to 200 damage a turn

Build Moved
I moved the Hybrid build becaue it doesn't fit into the second list of builds under developement, it's already finished.

--Creao 18:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)